Let the "Greatest" Debate Begin

by cadgate 16. January 2008 13:54

On Sunday, Bode Miller matched Phil Mahre’s long standing record for World Cup race victories by an American –  at 27 – by winning the Lauberhorn downhill in Wengen, Switzerland.

 

Some will now say that that now removes all doubt – with this, Bode has earned the title of “Best Ever American Ski Racer”. And there are some pretty strong arguments to be made for that. Those tend to be more obvious because Bode is current, and his impact is fresh in our minds. There are also some strong arguments that say Phil is still the man. In this post, I won’t be exhausting all points and counterpoints that I can think of  – I’m hoping you will jump in and hit  all those and even some that have not occurred to me – but here are a couple to get you started. 

 

Phil’s 27 include 11 combined wins – that’s a full 40% of his total. So what? Simple, combined races have never attracted the same amount of competition as have the individual specialties. Tell me who the current “SC specialist” is. Grange? Ligety? Benni? Bode? Albrecht? No, they are all specialists in, well, specialties. They come around and scoop up SC points because they can do it relatively easily. None are near the best in both slalom and downhill. These are the big SC point scorers, yet you don’t see them giving up GS training in order to concentrate on combined. Less competition equals easier to win. This was as true, or truer in Phil’s time. That’s not to say that some of the very best skiers haven’t won combined titles – they have. But peruse the list of combined podium scorers over history, and you’ll find yourself saying “who?”, and “never heard of him!” way more often than you do if you look at a list of specialty event podiums. With the exception of the rare speed event race when conditions create a farce, you don’t score a top three in a specialty event with mediocre skiing, no matter how much luck or fate wants you to. Heck, you won’t make the top 20 if that’s all you’ve got. So, since a higher percentage of Phil’s wins are in combined events. Point Bode.

 

Phil’s wins came during the reign of the best and most dominant ski racer ever, Ingemar Stenmark. Wins were harder to come by then because of the Swede, especially in Ingemar's strong events – slalom and GS – where Phil scored most of his wins. Point Phil.

 

Phil would have been very good at Super-G, and probably would have taken advantage of those extra starts to pad his WC win total. Because this is on the speculative side, no points given.

 

Bode’s wins are evenly spread across all the events. In fact, in late ‘04 he won convincingly in all four specialties within less than a month. Not since Jean-Claude Killy had someone shown such versatility and speed at the same time, so point Bode.

 

WC wins aren’t the only measure. Olympic medals. Phil owns Olympic Gold . . . laying it down in the biggest showdown in the sport. Bode doesn't. Point-and-a-half Phil.

 

But here’s the real biggie . . .

 

 . . . but you gotta’ wait just a sec while I tell you a quick story. A couple years ago, somebody started this thing up with me that Bode was already at that time, the hands down best-ever American. For proof, he served me up the fact that while Bode had just won the World Cup Overall title, Phil had never done so. And he was right – Phil didn’t win a World Cup Overall, he won three of them. This fellow really didn’t know that, which is ok for an average fan – but not for somebody posing as qualified to argue ski racing history.

 

So there’s the big one, the main reason (the trump card, actually) why I think Bode’s still got a little way to go.

 

Now I know that Bode says that records, medals, and bullets on the bio don’t matter to him. And I honestly think that’s very cool if it’s not just talk – but I guess that, by definition, it eliminates Bode himself as a participant of the debate (not that I think Phil will be hiring a publicist). But, sorry Bode, I’m afraid that to award the title of “best ever”, we need tangible facts, and not just whether a racer felt good about his own trip down the mountain.

 

I would like to hear some well-thought-out arguments for one or the other – supported by accurate facts, so fire away!  (See “Add Comment”, below.)

 

Regardless, isn’t it cool that we can even have a debate about such huge success for American ski racing on the world stage? Both these guys have plowed a path for future U.S. skiers. Instead of Phil or Bode, history may someday pick a name we haven’t yet heard – but even if that happens, both these guys will deserve some of the credit.

 

Cary Adgate - BOYNE SnowSports Ambassador 

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Comments

January 16. 2008 19:55

Whoa! Not so fast. Bode didn't get the memo that he couldn't take part in the debate. I assume this quote I found on the Ski Racing website is accurate (seeing my own botched quotes in the press over the years has made me skeptical). Bode had been asked about tying Phil's win record:

“I’ve been thinking about trying to win races,” he said after the victory. “So that’s about where it goes for me. Sure, it was a goal that I have looked at since I was young. I thought I wanted to be the best that the U.S. had ever had, so I guess that’s what I am. It’s nice to have the numbers to back it up.”

Doesn't sound like he is including Phil in that club, does it? I sincerely hope that some reporter puts the Olympic Gold / World Cup Overall Titles question to him before he spends too much getting plaques engraved.

Cary Adgate

January 16. 2008 22:51

As much as I tend to traditionally support any "under-dog", I must concede that Phil Mahre wins this celebrity ski-racer death match. In my opinion, 2 specific nails (among many, many others) securely fasten the lid on the coffin.

First, Phil performed better (and more tactfully) at the olympics. One silver. One Gold. Bode has two silvers from 2002. This, followed by an embarrasing display in 2006 of not only skiing, but more importantly of his flamboyant mouth. The poor skiing, well, all athletes have bad days. I have heard many reasons, or excuses, for his behavior. I simply remember it as embarrasing. If Bode wants to take "the title" from Phil Mahre, he'll have to not only perform well, but he'll have to do it with class. Point Phil.

Second, Phil won three Overall World Cup Titles. Consecutively. Consecutively. Consecutively. Bode has one Overall WC Title to his name, and several single-discipline titles. Albeit impressive, I contend that the "triple-overall-consecutive" is a bit more difficult to achieve. Point Phil.

I do concede that Bode is in position to rob Phil Mahre of his title as greatest American ski racer. However, he is not quite there yet.

Tom Behan

January 17. 2008 12:47

Well I will give this a go. In 2005 Bode Miller won a slalom, a GS, a Super G and Downhill all in the space of 10 days. Phil never won a downhill or a Super G. Admittedly, Super G was added at the end of Phils career, but it was a discipline during his. Bode changed the sport. He was the first person, I am aware of that used shaped skis in slalom. I will make the argument, he is the most dominant force in ski racing the U.S. has ever produced. He is the greatest amercian skier ever. He has won in all events, and his contemporarites are amoung some of the greatest in the sport. Herman Maier, Aamott, Lasse Khus, and Stephan Eberharder all won over all's as Miller asended. I've got more arguments I'll use them only if needed.

Christopher Herrmann

January 17. 2008 21:54

OK, more tidbits. Phil was a very respectable downhiller, especially since he really didn't race the event much prior to 1981, the year he won his first WC Overall globe. He had four top-ten WC downhills, including a 5th. I don't see any SG's in the archives prior to Phil's retirement, so I don't think he had a shot at that.

Regarding Olympic medals, Bode's silver in GS is awesome. However, you know what I think of the combined silver. Consider that Phil didn't win a WC race in 1984, but he stepped it up to take the gold in the Sarajevo SL – the one he just missed in Lake Placid in 1980, when he narrowly lost an epic SL duel with THE MAN, Ingemar Stenmark in his prime. So Phil's silver is way more meaningful than Bode's "other" silver. Another arrow: Phil won the combined in Lake Placid, but that was before they started awarding Olympic medals for combined. So, it was a "only" a World Championship gold. If the rule changes earlier, Phil has two Olympic golds.

Herm, you may have several more arguments, but you only need one - but it has to be a BIG one, that answers Bode's lack of multiple WC Overalls, and his lack of an Olympic gold. I agree that when Bode's at his best, he is one of, if not THE best ever for a single trip down the mountain - including everybody, not just Americans. But how can you give a title for "best ever" based on relatively few awesome results and some fantastic split times, but then have insufficient proof when it comes to the biggest titles available. Ask World Cup racers what title proves you're the best and 100 out of 100 will say the World Cup Overall globe.

I'll help you by giving you what I think is your best argument. In Phil's three Overall globe years, he won 3 combineds during each of those years. That's a lot of points, and I bet they were the clinchers for the Overall titles. Some of those combineds had as few as 5 finishers, and often 10 or less. I saw Stenmark's name on only one combined result, so that was one guy not really challenging. On the other hand, there were some big names in 2nd and 3rd in some of those - names like Pirmin Zurbriggen, Marc Girardelli, Peter Luscher, Andreas Wenzel.

As you see, I'm not a fan of the combineds. They were created out of a desire to reward versatile achievement. The problem is that, at least since the early 70's, they have attracted insufficient competition for them to be very meaningful. I wish the WC fathers would just let the Overall title serve as it does - the ultimate combined.

I still think Bode needs at least one more Overall to be the guy. Maybe he'll get it this year. He has changed his tune a bit, saying after the Wengen DH that he was pleased with his aggressiveness even though he wasn't completely happy with his skiing. And look at the Wengen SL - hanging in for 5th, despite running a hairpin backwards. That is tenacity and "results getting" that was not typical of the old Bode. This second Overall might really happen if he continues to try to win races and not just make himself happy as he is skiing down the hill.

Cary Adgate

January 28. 2008 17:26

Considering that Bode has moved into the overall WC lead today, it seems appropriate to add my comments to this debate.

First, I would like to rebut Cary's assertion that the combined event is a lower caliber race for the specialists to get points ‘relatively easily’. It may be true that fewer racers enter a given combined event; however, any top contender for the overall title must compete and score in these races if they hope to get the crystal globe. The combined requires a special amalgam of skills and I don’t think that it is a coincidence that Miller or Mahre (or Aamodt or Kjus) won them consistently and often handily. I think that this argument is a bit like saying that decathlon is in an easy event because the competitors couldn’t win every event against the specialists in the high jump, 100m sprint, etc. Those who are successful in sports know how to make the most of the rules; anyone on the tour can enter the combined, the best will maximize this opportunity.

So, my assertion is that the combined race wins for Phil and Bode count, and count fully.

Second, I think that this debate is not just about numbers and medal counts. I think that Bode and Phil have a vastly different approach to the sport and because their records are so close, we defend the approach we like best. For instance, what does ‘tact’ at the Olympics have to do with athletic ability?

I think that way that the media has portrayed Bode is reprehensible, not his actions. Are we really to believe that no NFL or NBA players have ever imbibed alcohol during the season? It was Bode’s honesty that got him vilified by the press. We would rather believe a mythology that all successful athletes win though grit and determination (like the image of Phil). Bode exudes a careless talent. We don’t like him because no amount of grit could create him. We love to see someone so transcendent stumble because it reminds us that they are human and reassures our notion that hard work pays off.

Here are some numbers to mull over (they put Phil as 11th best ever and Bode as 13th using a neat Super Ranking formula):
http://www.ski-db.com/db/stats/M_super.asp

My personal contention is the Mahre still edges Miller based on numbers. However, numbers don’t tell the whole story. Mahre refined his craft to an incredible level; he was a calculating tactician who controlled variables and had a burning desire to win. Miller is an innovator with shocking talent who has never been afraid to be wrong. He has inspired other skiers (see Ted Ligety) in ways Mahre never could. That’s what makes him ‘the greatest'.

Ben Crockett

February 12. 2008 19:03

What makes this debate interesting to me is that everybody here is arguing both sides of the argument and seems to have an open mind - making it an honest and valid debate. But our final conclusions are still different - at least for the time being.

I agree with most of what Ben says, and especially that Bode is inspiring and creative. He has inspired and influenced me far more than any racer from any era. I do not subscribe to the seeming consensus in the coaching ranks that what Bode does only works for Bode . . . however . . .

First, the decathlon analogy doesn't work - decathletes are specialists in that combined collection of events. While none are competitive against specialists in any of the individual events, just the same, no individual specialists would stand a chance in decathlon. This is not even close to being true with ski racing.

Also, about my combined theory - after some more research, I stand corrected on the value of Phil's combined scoring. If Phil had been pushed over the top for any of his Overall globes by scoring 3rd, 4th, or 5th in combined races with only 5 finishers, I would be sticking to my argument. But in looking at his combined wins, while he didn't beat a lot of people, he did beat the cream of the crop in virtually all of those wins. Scoring in combined during that era was more than relatively easy, it was just plain easy (when dead last almost always scored points). But Phil didn't just score - he won. Check out this one, where 2nd through 5th places are occupied entirely by other WC Overall globe winners!

www.fis-ski.com/.../610.html

Also negating my previous combined argument is the fact that Bode is now (incredibly) becoming the "calculating tactician" and skiing for the points in combined, just like Phil did. If you saw his SC slalom runs from Chamonix and Val d'Isere, you're hard pressed to argue that they were sport-changing performances. But they were both VERY effective. So if he wins a second or a third Overall globe, it will be by doing it, in part, the same way Phil did. So, no advantage for either with the combined issue. But this negates a point I had awarded to Bode, so the change solidifies my opinion that Phil is still the best ever.

I couldn't agree more about the media's treatment of Bode - but small-minded, jealous sports journalists are a dime a dozen, so who cares? I have zero bias against Bode because of anything he has said. On the contrary, most of what he says makes perfect sense to me. His recent rant (after Scott McCartney's crash) about how race organizers play fast and loose with the health of the competitors is something that needed to be said long ago. It's among the main reasons I stopped running downhill. Let those wizards go 85mph off the jump they built before opening the course for the racers! And I suspect the 'Bodeisms' that seem to make less sense were thrown out there just to confound the previously mentioned journalists - and I can certainly see the humor in that.

Grit? Bode doesn't do what he does without an equal measure of grit to go with his, shall we say, 'calculated recklessness'. He just goes out of his way not to let anyone know - but I agree that it takes more than just grit, and both Bode and Phil have grit and lots more. Many won't remember, but Phil (and Steve, too) had breathtaking natural athletic talent and the confidence to use it. It was nothing (to them) to toss a casual helicopter or flip off a drop on the way to the training course. Especially earlier in their careers, the were known for pulling things off in races that would leave you shaking your head. They also weren't afraid of insisting on the "I did it my way" approach. For example, they didn't train - period. All their preparation was done with skiing and other sports: hoops, motocross, waterskiing, football. No sit-ups, no push-ups, no squats. Stretching - I never saw it. Unconventional? Unheard of? Yes, and yes. Much as with Bode. And now, in exquisite symmetry, Bode has gone a bit boring on us with his new race tactics - but as we see, a touch of boring wins races and Overall globes. Can you say Raich and Svindal? Now Bode, of all people, may be about to beat the European machines at their own game.

But back to the essence of the argument: the best ever. Not the most exciting, the most inspiring, or the most creative . . . but the best. We agree that Phil is still ahead on numbers. Where we differ is that I don't think you can say somebody is the best American racer ever unless it is based on those numbers. Could'a, would'a, should'a isn't proof. One of the nice things about ski racing is the lack of judges - the clock sorts things out definitively - and awards, records, and titles are dictated by the clock only. No matter how amazing and inspiring, a DNF doesn't count.

In addition to Phil's Olympic gold and his three consecutive Overall globes, he was second overall once and third twice - all in a six-year block. While I could agree that the gold isn't necessarily a trump card - how do you ignore that WC Overall record?

Fun debating - and before the debate's over, Bode may end it by continuing to pile up individual race victories - and maybe win another Overall or two.

Cary Adgate

February 17. 2008 09:40

Here's an interesting interview with Bode on the subject of the increased validity of SC - recorded after his SC win in Val d'Isere.

I can't get the link to work, so you may need to copy and paste the URL:

www.worldskinews.com/1021-VideoInterview_with_Bode_Miller-,e_159005,r_20653.htm

Cary Adgate

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